Michael Ginsberg of Tokamak Energy joins Tom Heintzman, Vice Chair, Energy Transition and Sustainability, to discuss the promise of nuclear fusion - the challenges and opportunities to commercialize fusion technology, and it’s potential to transform future energy markets as a source of virtually limitless, clean, safe and secure energy.
Tom Heintzman: Welcome to The Sustainability Agenda, a podcast series focusing on the evolving complexities of the sustainability landscape. I'm your host, Tom Heintzman. Please join me as we explore today's most pressing issues with special guests that will give you some new perspectives and help you make sense of what really matters.
Michael Ginsberg: Imagine regions currently energy poor gaining access to reliable power. Imagine a global economy decoupled from fossil fuel volatility. Imagine deep electrification from heavy industry to synthetic fuels to data centers, all powered by fusion. So we see this as a foundation for energy abundance, geopolitical stability and climate resilience.
Tom Heintzman: Welcome to our multi-part series on the role of electrification in the transition to clean energy. On today's episode, we continue our discussion on nuclear power. In previous episodes, we covered two forms of nuclear fission, large traditional generation, like CANDU reactors, as well as SMRs. Today, we'll explore a very different technology, nuclear fusion. While elusive, nuclear fusion holds the promise of virtually limitless, clean, safe, and secure energy. I'm thrilled to welcome my guest, Michael Ginsberg, President of Tokamak Energy Inc. Tokamak is the US subsidiary of UK-based Tokamak Energy LTD. Michael is responsible for leading the company's US expansion in both fusion and superconductor technologies, following the company's selection as one of eight private companies for the US Department of Energy's multi-million dollar milestone based fusion development program. Michael's a renewable energy leader and author with 15 plus years of experience developing green hydrogen plants and utility scale solar and storage and micro good projects worldwide. We were also fortunate to have Michael as a speaker at our CIBC Electrification Summit in April of this year on our panel discussing the role of nuclear in meeting the demand to electrify. Good morning, Michael. It's great to have you back and welcome to the show.
Michael Ginsberg: Thank you.
Tom Heintzman: Michael, let's start at a very high level. Can you begin by describing what nuclear fusion is for our listeners and how it differs from fission? Also, even though nuclear fusion is still largely in its developmental phase, what benefits is this form of energy expected to offer once it becomes commercial?
Michael Ginsberg: Absolutely and great to be with you. So let's start with what nuclear fusion actually is. And fusion is the process that powers the sun. It involves taking two light atomic nuclei, typically isotopes of hydrogen like deuterium and tritium, and fusing them together under extreme heat and pressure. When they combine, they form a heavier nucleus and release a tremendous amount of energy. So this is very different from nuclear fission, which is the technology used in today's nuclear power plants. Fission works by splitting heavy atoms like uranium into smaller ones, which also releases a lot of energy, but it does come with long-lived radioactive waste and a risk of chain reaction that must be really carefully managed. Fusion by contrast produces no carbon emissions, no risk of meltdown, and generates only short-lived low-level radioactive waste. The fuels for fusion are abundant. The energy density is orders of magnitude higher than fossil fuels, so a small cup of fusion fuel could power a home for years. About one kilogram of fusion fuel would be equivalent to 10 million kilograms of coal. So while fusion is still in development, the potential benefits are profound, clean, safe, and virtually limitless energy. And once commercialized, fusion could provide the backbone of a net zero energy system, powering industry, transport, and even direct air capture with minimal environmental impact and extraordinary energy security. Now, fusion, in my opinion, is this century's most important technology. It will provide limitless clean energy in the future. Developing fusion is producing transformative technologies right now. And I'd love to talk a little bit about that in subsequent questions.
Tom Heintzman: Fantastic. And what was that stat? That one kilogram of fusion is the same as, what was it? 10 million kilograms of coal?
Michael Ginsberg: 10 million kilograms of coal.
Tom Heintzman: Amazing, amazing. So Michael, Tokamak's been developing fusion technology with a mission to deliver fusion energy in the 2030s. Can you give us an overview of the company, how your technology works, and what's been your track record of achievement?
Michael Ginsberg: Yeah, so Tokamak Energy was founded in 2009, one of the oldest fusion companies in the world, as a spinoff from the UK Atomic Energy Authority. We've grown into really a leading global fusion and superconducting technology company. Our US subsidiary was established in 2019, and we recently established our Japanese subsidiary earlier this year. So our pathway to commercial fusion is built on proven, peer-reviewed science and an unrivaled track record. In 2022, we achieved a peer-reviewed plasma temperature of 100 million degrees Celsius in our active operational spherical tokamak research device called ST40. That temperature, by the way, is six times the temperature of the core of the sun, and that's the threshold for commercial fusion. We were the hottest place in the solar system for that moment in time. We also achieved the highest triple product of any private fusion company. So that's a widely recognized industry test of three things, plasma density, temperature, and confinement. Basically, I like to think of it as Jello that you're trapping and keeping in a very, very small space. And that's a key measure of progress on the path to commercial fusion. And we're widely recognized as a world leader in the underlying technology for magnetic fusion, superconducting magnets. This high temperature superconducting technology is something that we've been pioneering over the last 10 years. And our world's first high temperature superconducting fusion magnet system called Demo4 is just now finishing being commissioned and it is set for operations in the remaining part of this year. So with this new magnet system, we'll be gaining world record, leading crucial insights into the performance an interaction of these magnets in a Tokamak configuration. And a tokamak is essentially a magnetic cage that traps and confines the plasma energy. So we're a world leader in these two transformative technologies, the tokamak and in particular, what's called the spherical tokamak and high temperature superconducting magnets. I'll talk briefly on the spherical tokamak. So we take a traditional tokamak device, which is more like a donut, and we compress it down basically to make it a little bit more squished. That has the benefit of improving our plasma performance and enabling us to use less magnet material because you're keeping the plasma energy in a smaller space. And then I'll lastly talk about the fact that with our magnet technology, we've actually launched a new division of our company, TE Magnetics, last year in collaboration with key manufacturing partners to become the leading supplier of HTS technology across multiple markets. So we developed the HTS technology essentially to make fusion work. And we're now recognizing that this magnet technology is transformative in a number of other industries, including renewable energy, medicine, science, propulsion, and weight in water, land, air, and space.
Tom Heintzman: Michael, regarding the magnets, I recall that either you or one of your colleagues explained to me that one of your magnets the size of about a dining room table could pick up a battleship. Is that fair?
Michael Ginsberg: That's right. And the tremendous magnetic fields that come off of the superconductors can do that. And it's one of the applications that could be achieved.
Tom Heintzman: Yeah, it's mind boggling. And the fact that you created something that was six times hotter than the sun, even briefly, is... Anyway, there's so many questions I'd love to ask, but what have been the challenges in commercializing your fusion technology? And how are your partnerships like with the US DOE helping you to overcome those challenges and achieve your goal? And what other partnerships have been key in your roadmap to commercial fusion?
Michael Ginsberg: Yeah, so we believe the fastest route to commercial fusion energy is in partnership with governments and industry. We really embrace public-private partnership. This is a hard problem. This is the perhaps hardest, most technically challenging thing that humanity has ever strived to do. So we're really proud to be a part of the US Department of Energy Milestone-based Fusion Development Program. Through this initiative, we are advancing our technology roadmap and collaborating with US institutions, universities and national labs to overcome key technical challenges. Additionally, we have been shortlisted amongst other industry partners for the role of engineering partner in the UK government's prestigious STEP initiative. That's the Spherical Tokamak for Energy Production Program. So this project aims to construct a fusion pilot plant in the UK, paving the way for a new era of clean energy. And I really want to emphasize that in this program, we put together a world-class team of industrial partners into a joint venture. And this could serve as a model for how we develop these fusion plants worldwide going forward. So amongst us or alongside us, we include Westinghouse, ENI or ENI, an Italian energy major world leading in fusion, as well as Amentum and Atkins Realis. So we fundamentally believe that our fusion expertise alongside the expertise of the world leading EPCs and developers of the world will be the way forward. And we're also very active in Asia. In Japan, we've been working towards the design and technology program for what's called FAST (*Fusion by Advanced Semiconducting Tokamak). And so we're essentially looking to help to achieve these first of a kind or fusion pilot plant projects globally in partnership with governments. And we see ourselves as the key resource for governments and industry partners looking to achieve first of a kind fusion plants.
Tom Heintzman: Just double clicking on the challenges. What do you see as the next one or two accomplishments that you need to, or barriers you need to overcome, challenges you need to pass in order to commercialize the technology? You've accomplished a lot so far, but what remains?
Michael Ginsberg: Yeah, certainly. So the HTS technology, the magnetic technology is really one of the key enablers and we look to continue to de-risk this technology. That's one of our main areas of focus. So it's things like accelerated aging tests, ensuring that the magnets will be able to withstand the neutrons and the interaction with different types of radiation, such as gamma radiation over the lifetime of the fusion plant. It's also identifying and testing materials. So we do need materials that will be able to withstand these high temperatures, as well as that will be able to allow for neutrons to pass through. So you're looking at certain structural alloys and other elements. And so we actually do test these materials. And we do this with partners in the US and the UK and globally. And I think lastly, we still need to continue to leverage AI and sort of machine learning and algorithms to best predict and modify our plasma in operation. This is something I think that AI can really help fusion with because the dynamics, the physics and plasma performance dynamics are very complex, as you can imagine, in fusion reaction. And so I think AI is one of the enablers that ourselves and others are looking at how we can leverage best.
Tom Heintzman: There's a joke in the industry, although hopefully you'll find it funny and won't take offense, that fusion is always 30 years away. And I think people have been saying that for 30 years. What gives you confidence that now is the moment, that fusion can be viable in the 2030s?
Michael Ginsberg: Absolutely. And that's a really fair question. And myself, as you introduced me, have come from a background of developing different types of energy plants from hydrogen to solar. So I looked at this also with the same lens. But now that I've been in the industry for some time, I think that the 30 years or 10 years away quip has endured because historically, fusion progress was driven by R&D cycles with limited commercial urgency. And I think what's changed is the convergence of three key factors. First and foremost is technology readiness. So advances in these high temperature superconducting magnets is critical. It was the 1980s Nobel winning prize that was fundamental to these superconducting magnets. It took about 30 to 40 more years to really figure out how to use them in practice. Plasma control as well, and material science mean that we can now design compact power plant relevant machines. And I think that that's really a key enabler. And then private sector acceleration. So there's now a global cohort of privately funded fusion companies working with a commercial focus and aggressive timelines. We're really proud to have launched last year a brand new program working alongside the US and UK government, the Department of Energy in the US and the Department of Energy Security and Net Zero in the UK on a brand new campaign on our facility. And I mention this because this brings the best of both worlds, the best of the expertise of the public sector and the government labs, and the best of the commercial pace of the private sector. So we want to achieve and move quickly. And that's a game changer. We're now not really waiting on fundamental new physics. Although there are some challenges remaining, we're engineering toward grid ready systems. And I think that that's what's really exciting. And then lastly, government support with clear milestones. So programs like the DOE Milestone Fusion Development Program and STEP are aligning public funding with private delivery targets over the next 10 to 20 years. And that's unprecedented. So at Tokamak Energy, we've built and operated multiple machines and developed this world-leading HTS capability, and we're collaborating globally to accelerate the pace of fusion.
Tom Heintzman: The concept of fusion is absolutely remarkable, essentially creating our own suns. It borders on science fiction, if you'll permit me. But my last question is to ask you to look into your crystal ball. And let's assume for a moment that fusion becomes viable in the 2030s and commercial in the 2040s. You, I'm sure, have thought a lot about that day. I'm curious about how the advent of fusion and the abundance of energy would change the world as we know it. What do you think would change most dramatically and what would the world look like if fusion were ubiquitous?
Michael Ginsberg: Yeah, thanks for that question. I'm a huge science fiction person, so I appreciate that. And it's driven me, I think, in my life. I think that things like Star Trek and this is the end of the technology that you can discover in civilization, the game. But fundamentally, I think that if fusion becomes viable in the next couple of decades, what are we doing? We are fundamentally transforming our relationship with energy. No longer are we limited by energy scarcity. It becomes more of a fundamental human commodity. So we unlock a virtually limitless source of clean energy without carbon emissions, with no long-lived radiological waste, no risk of meltdown. There's no runaway reaction potential here. That changes everything. Imagine regions currently energy poor gaining access to reliable power. Imagine a global economy decoupled from fossil fuel volatility. Imagine deep electrification from heavy industry to synthetic fuels to data centers, all powered by fusion. So we see this as a foundation for energy abundance, geopolitical stability and climate resilience. It's not going to solve every problem, but it will give humanity a real clean energy runway to solve the rest. And I think it will enable us to achieve far greater scientific advancements over the next century.
Tom Heintzman: Well, Michael, that was absolutely fascinating. Thanks for taking the time to join the show today and sharing your thoughts. And thank you to the listeners for tuning in.
Michael Ginsberg: Thank you.
Tom Heintzman: Please join us next time as we tackle some of sustainability's biggest questions, providing you different perspectives to help you move forward. I'm your host, Tom Heintzman, and this is The Sustainability Agenda.
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